In this episode of Why We Dance, host Mia Tate sits down with choreographer, dancer, and disability arts advocate Alice Sheppard to explore how movement becomes a way of knowing—shaping identity, culture, and human connection through dance.
Movement as Meaning. Dance as Belonging.
In this episode of Why We Dance, Mia Tate welcomes Alice Sheppard for a powerful conversation about redefining dance through disability culture, collaboration, and lived experience.
Alice shares her unconventional path into dance, beginning in academia with music and medieval studies before movement reshaped how she understood her body and the world around her. A pivotal encounter with disabled dancer Homer Avila challenged long-held assumptions about who dance is for—and what it can communicate beyond traditional norms.
The conversation traces the founding and evolution of Kinetic Light, a disability-led arts company known for creating visually striking, culturally rich work rooted in disabled experience. Alice speaks candidly about collaboration as a creative practice, the responsibility of representation in the arts, and the essential role audiences play in meaning-making.
Together, Mia and Alice explore dance as both a deeply personal and collective act—one that holds space for resilience, interdependence, and universal human truths. This episode is a meditation on creativity, movement, and why dance remains one of our most honest forms of expression.
Episode Timestamps:
[00:00] Introduction and Initial Thoughts on Disability Representation
[00:52] Welcoming Alice Shepherd
[01:30] Alice Shepherd's Background and Description
[02:33] Introduction of Mia Tate
[03:41] Alice Shepherd's Artistic Journey
[04:43] Exploring the Concept of Movement
[08:02] Alice Shepherd's Early Life and Musical Background
[11:05] Transition to Medieval Studies and Dance
[17:01] The Influence of Homer Avila
[22:03] Challenges and Breakthroughs in Dance
[27:35] The Connection with the Audience
[29:45] Founding Kinetic Light
[30:41] Collaborating with Michael Mag
[31:32] Forming the Dance Company
[32:19] Creating Art Rooted in Disability Culture
[36:21] The Impact of the Performance Wired
[40:14] Responsibilities as an Artist and Audience
[44:49] The Collaborative Nature of Dance
[51:40] Processing and Preparing for Future Projects
[53:14] Reflections on Dance and Writing
[01:01:03] A Letter on Why I Dance
Links & Resources:
Mia Tate’s IMDb
Alice Sheppard Dance Magazine
Kinetic Light – Official Website
Subscribe and follow Why We Dance on YouTube, TikTok, and Instagram @WhyWeDance
Podcast Producer: S.J. Nichols (Seannon Gonzalez)
Executive Producer: Meredith Gooderham
Production Studio: Caspian Studios
Camera Operator: Kai Irvine
Assistant Camera: Ben Drummond
Production also by: Dark to Light Productions
Thank you to: Davies Reid Rugs
[00:00:00] I remember one day leaving a, a, a theater just being like, like everyone was gushing about how wonderful it was and, and like how, how tragic the disabled person died. And I'm just kind of like, really? Like at what point do we get to live? And when I work that spoke from our culture that connected with other artists and other culture makers, that was intertextual that was, um, set in the series of legacies and traditions. I wanted work that, that, um, was disabled.
[00:00:52] Alice, I'm so excited you're here. We did it. I think, or at least we haven't done it. Uh, but we're going to do it. We're going to do it. And you know how much I wanted you here for our first season? You know that you were like my, one of my first stories I found Yeah. You, we did it and, and, and, and I, I did it so happy that we could do it.
[00:01:21] Like, 'cause it took a while to make this connection. Yeah. But finally, you've been busy with your production and everything. I wanna hear all about that. My name is Alice Sheppard. Um, I am a multiracial black woman and today I have dyed copper, orange, pink, curly hair. With the, the, the, the roots are beginning to show a little.
[00:01:46] Um, I have, um, light coffee colored skin and, uh, white, uh, headphones that are like making my ears six times the size that they are, that they would usually be. I'm wearing a bright, scarlet red sweater and on camera, but beneath the camera. What you can't see is that I am all dressed in my loose baggy trousers and I'm seated in a manual wheelchair.
[00:02:10] Uh, behind me is a window, um, with, uh, narrow frames and occasionally views of New York will appear in frame. And it is a cold, gray, rainy day in New York City. Uh, I'm excited to be here with Mia and yeah, over to you. Okay. My name is Mia Tate. I am a white woman with dark brown hair that, um, about medium length, dark brown hair that wasn't agreeing with me.
[00:02:44] So I just pulled it back and tucked it into my burgundy jacket with gold buttons. Um, below I'm sitting at a desk and below the desk I have on jeans and one shoe 'cause I like to tuck my left foot underneath me. And so I for some reason wear one shoe when I do these interviews. Behind me, um, I'm filming in a beautiful rug store, so I've got fabric that is actually dancing skirts and I've got incredible furniture and, um, filled in a building filled with stories to start my stories here, including the one I'm so excited about with Alice Sheppard.
[00:03:32] Hi. I am here. It's good to connect. We did it. It's so good to connect. Um, so Alice is our guest today, Alice Sheppard. She is a celebrated choreographer, dancer, writer, disability arts advocate. Um, she excites, inspires and just reimagines the conversation of movement, uh, body conversation. She is, um, a trailblazer and I'm so honored to have her on the show so that we can get a little bit of this magic she puts out there.
[00:04:11] Well, thank you Mia. It's a really wonderful introduction. I'm happy to be here. You know, it's like good. It's a moment of privilege to be able to share my story, but also to be able to connect with you and to share it with you. I'm excited by your work and we're gonna do something good today.
[00:04:27] Yes. Oh, I love that.
[00:04:29] Thank you. Alice. We are gonna do something good today. I'm just gonna dive in. I wanna know so many things about you. I have pages here. Um, oh, I wanna, okay, I'm gonna start this off with the question I ask all of my guests. What does movement mean to you?
[00:04:47] Oh, are we talking about movement? Like body, physical movement, emotional shifting, movement, whatever that whatever you think.
[00:04:56] The movement. Movement, because the movement is that, and we are, and as general always says, the movement is the movement. Okay. So let's hit it. Um, you know, I think we don't pay attention very much to movement, like of our bodies, unless something is funky, you know? Like when you get out of bed in the morning, do you spend a lot of time pa... like noticing the way that you swing your leg and the way you put your foot on the floor?
[00:05:26] And do you, do you think about your body? Um, yeah. Do you think about your body when you do those kinds of things, do you focus on like the artistry that is inherent in just transitioning from sitting to standing or moving through the space? Do you focus on your body when you do that? Um, because I do, like, I focus on my body a lot.
[00:05:50] Not all day, every day, but I focus on like what happens in my body in everyday states and what happens with my body on stage. And I'm really attentive to how I move. Like even if I go down the street sometimes, I'm just really caught by the feeling of my wheels and my fingers as a way of understanding the world.
[00:06:12] Like, like, like literally, like it's a way of understanding how I'm grounded in the world, how the world moves around me, like dashing through the streets of New York. That's a thing. Um, it's, it's, yeah, movement is a way of actually activating living and understanding how we live and move and sense the world.
[00:06:37] Yeah. I love that. I, I too share that, um, awareness of movement. I, I like to say I kind of, I do the things to live in my body, you know, the spaces in between mean a lot to me. Not just getting from point A to point B and feeling, you know, presence is one of my big ones for dance. So, you know, the awareness to feel the wind, you know, on your skin or to hear the sound of New York.
[00:07:06] Uh, you know, I'm in Idaho so I get a lot of opportunity as far as being rooted in nature. Different kind of, uh, ignites different things. And then my other balances. I love New York. So, but um, yes, that awareness of movement. I love that. It's so true. I mean, how much richer of an experience do we get to have?
[00:07:28] I dunno. I mean, I, I think that's it. This is the primary thing. You only have one of these, right? And they do sense the world. Um, and I think that's kind of important as a foundation for artistry. There's artistry in understanding these bodies. I do have a spiritual practice of the body. It's just not associated with any kind of known form.
[00:07:52] And I think that's important. I really think that's important. That's how we breathe. Yeah. Then you get to define it as you go along. Yeah. Um, okay. So take me to, can we go to the beginning? I would love to, I like to kind of get a feel for guests, you know, how, um, where they grew up because so much of that kind of plays into the people they become and the character and stories.
[00:08:18] So where did you grow up?
[00:08:21] I grew up in a small village in the United Kingdom, in the Cotswolds. It was the village that my father was born in. Um, he had a musical, very strong musical career. Played in, in London, in the jazz clubs. And then when he had a family, he came back and settled in the village that, um, he was born in.
[00:08:43] So I grew up there, there was a pre, it was the Anglo Norman church on the hill. Um, the, you know, the house we lived in used to have a thatched roof. I mean, if you think English Village, I grew up there. Really? I can see it. Um, oh, I can't, well, at least not anymore, but I, I, I did grow up there. Yeah. Um, and was, as a father, that was a musician, was it, was the house filled with music?
[00:09:16] Were the arts part of your growing up? Yeah. Um, so my dad was a musician and I like to tell stories about, you know, the band coming back from a gig and crashing on the sofa and really not knowing who you'd wake up to in, in the house in the morning. Um, to my dad teaching, um, to me and my sisters practicing music all day, every day.
[00:09:43] Um, I think we were horrible neighbors. I really think we were horrible neighbors. Um, like I, I think on our street, like, yeah, I, I would not want her to live next to us or close to us. Um, but yeah, music was a very large part of my life. Um, every day we, we practiced, we had orchestras or um, we had jazz band.
[00:10:04] We had, we did gigs, musicals, um, yeah, we, yeah, I was a working musician. And When did you leave the village? I left. Oh, I left the village to go to university. Okay. I had made a decision, um, I had made a decision not to become a musician. And, um, you know, my, and to study languages. And then it became medieval languages.
[00:10:35] And my dad said, you know, who are you going to talk to? Uh, they're all dead. And I was like, I that you your PhD in medieval studies. I have so many questions about that. Yeah, me too. Me too. But yeah, that's how I got started. Um, yeah, my life is a pattern of doing something really hard and fast and then making a decision and doing something hard and fast and making a decision.
[00:10:59] And so, um, that's how I ended up dancing. I wanna get to that, but first I just wanna get inside why Medieval studies? I grew up, you know, in the, in the part of the UK that I grew up in, the medieval history is still present. You know, there's always the, there's the Roman baths over here. There's the doomsday bit over here.
[00:11:27] There's, people dig and find stuff. It's like the past isn't dead. Yeah. Um, and I was at university and I had to, I was unwell and uh, I had to catch up and I had to catch up alone. And so I gave myself, they, they gave me a book and I sat down with this Anglo-Saxon, this old English, and I was like, okay, my assignment is to translate these things.
[00:12:00] And so I just sat down and I worked it out. And the more I worked it out, I realized I wasn't un unlocking words. I was un unlocking a world, and the world was beautiful. Um, it was harsh, it was energetic. Um, it was epic. And so I worked on these translations and I knew that that's what I wanted to do.
[00:12:22] Would you say it was kind of, um, another version of storytelling that's kind of followed you? It seems like as a storyline through your life. Yeah, yeah. I've been really fascinated by, let's call it world building. Let's call it world building, right? Um, you know, a musical performance. Uh, even, even, you know, when I was a younger, young, a musical performance was never just about being on the stage, doing the thing and, and needing it.
[00:12:55] And so the, the work that I did as a professor really was about understanding the constructs of the world, like how they made a world, who belonged in it, who didn't belong in it, why that was how they bought, built bonds of relationship and, and how they strengthened them. And, uh, yeah, that's, that's, I wanted to understand that.
[00:13:22] Um, you know. I have in my notes here a lot, kind of moving away from, you know, the construct of society. So maybe I love how you had the, you understood it and then maybe lived a life not necessarily conforming to the constructs that are set up in front of us.
[00:13:44] My mother would love you for saying that because I am such a rules girl. I am such a rules girl. Like, I like to follow societal rules. Um, but so I follow all the little rules. Mm-hmm. And then I don't follow, like there's, but there's certain little rules I don't follow. Like, I don't follow like. You know what?
[00:14:08] You just opened something up for me. Oh, that's so cool. Uh, yeah, like how, when and where do I follow rules and which rules do I follow? Like I'm certain rules girl, um, but I don't wanna be, but I don't wanna be limited by the rules, so I don't follow like the, the basic rules of how you're supposed to behave or sometimes how you're supposed to dress or, um, but I did spend a lot of time learning the rules.
[00:14:30] Yeah. Yeah. So we're at university and you've decided not to be a musician, but then didn't you become a musician before heading into dance? Am I, do I have a bit of that timeline off? No, the, the, I, my musical careers basically faded out. Um, okay. I, the, especially then I didn't, and I didn't resume it after disability.
[00:14:52] Um, I, because I couldn't play anymore in the same way, so I didn't resume. Um, but yeah, I, it's almost like a sequential, like music, music, music. University, university, university dance. But of course they don't stop. They all kind of overlap and just keep going and just kind of, you know, make all those things happen.
[00:15:13] So yes, the sum of all the parts. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's been a lot to figure's. Been a lot. It's been a lot just mm-hmm. Keeping, like, yeah, keeping open. Keeping open. Yeah. How do, like, how do you, how do you keep open? Like how do you keep open to your stories and understand in this change? Like, do you leave part of your life when you move on or do you allow it to continue?
[00:15:42] Do you keep all of threads and tendrils and instincts, or do you make clean cuts? There's some cuts, but I think it's all interwoven into my story. So I would say, um, I keep open with gratitude to the parts of my story. Some of the ones I've put aside, but it's all feeds into the big, you know, my personal big story.
[00:16:09] Right. I get that. I get that. Yeah. I think that that's, I think it's important to have intentionality about that. Mm-hmm. Like, whatever, whichever one, whichever way you go. Yeah. As long as, as long as you're intentional in a way that, um, you know, what you're choosing and, and that gives you space to change your mind.
[00:16:32] Yeah. I used to call myself a brain on a stick, um, and it really wasn't. Yeah. I guess what I knew about my body, uh, you know, when I was growing up was it had a brain, it played music and it had a brain. Um, and particularly during the university years, um, it had a brain, but, but dance really taught me how to sense the world very, very differently.
[00:16:58] And so I'm very grateful for that.
[00:17:01] So then you met Homer Avila? Yeah, I did. Yeah. Um, can you tell us that story? I can, and, and I wanna be really like, you know, it's been over 20 years, I think it was like 20 years, uh, just over 20 years since the story started. And so I really wanna be like, careful how we tell the story, right?
[00:17:32] Because the story has impact, but it's really easy to romanticize the story and to make it, to make it, to make it good, and to make, you know um, and so, so I've spent a lot of time recently actually questioning the story and, and questioning my role in it. And, you know, even questioning what I know of him or knew of him, right?
[00:17:56] Because in the story he features one way. I don't actually know if in, in real life he was the person that featured in the story. And so, you know, it's, there's this kind of like moment of reckoning with, I have this amazing story, but like, I didn't know this person. And, and then 20 years later, what I wanna say about this story is actually really different from my experience of it.
[00:18:23] So can I try that out with you for the first time? Yeah, please. Okay. Okay. Here, here we wanna go. So, um, I became disabled and I really wasn't very good at it, right? Like, I had ideas about like what disability might be about, like, uh, from like intellectual ideas from books and things that I was reading.
[00:18:47] But actually I wasn't very good at living. In the new body. And, and I didn't have the awareness, I didn't have the techniques. So I go to this conference on disability studies, uh, on the university, and, um, immediately then, like I'm surrounded by these disabled academics and activists and like people I've only read about.
[00:19:13] Um, and all of them are looking at me and I'm just like, I'm such a beginner. Like I can't even manage to like open the door and like wheel my way through. And like, I'm struck, I am struggling. So Simi Linton takes me under her wings, Simi Linton takes me under her wing and she introduces me to Homer, who is the dancer.
[00:19:32] And I, you know, I have no clue 'cause I'm in my own like ableist self. Like I have no clue how a person with one egg, one leg is gonna do a dance performance. Like, I cannot even get my head around that. And that just kind of sucks because that, that's me in a really kind of like ableist way, not being able to understand what was even possible, because I am stuck in these conventional understandings of my own body as, and going through and struggle and, um, and the world.
[00:20:08] So I, I'm stuck there. I just don't know this.
[00:20:14] Simi connects me to Homer who asked me to read text in his, um, dance performance. So he's dancing to Bill Vila and is the one who is, and I'm reading the one who, the one who, the one who, um, and afterwards we gathered in the bar, um, and we were talking about disability, aesthetics and culture and integrity and authenticity and wholeness and art.
[00:20:37] And because my mind had just been kind of like blah, like blah. Yeah. Um, yeah, like. A couple of glasses of wine in, I drink red, um, nice, but a couple of glasses of wine in. Um, and you know, we're talking about this, it's the end of the night and a bunch of us have gathered Jim Fisk, Kerry Sandal and Homer, and a couple of others, don't remember.
[00:21:06] Um, and Homer says, you know, I dare you to take a dance class. You know, and he's like, we're talking about the impossibility of learning to dance. And he's like, I dare you to take a dance class. Um, and that was the end of the evening. Uh, then six weeks later, uh, he was dead. And that had been this last month.
[00:21:28] And I felt like I wanted to do that dare, like I wanted to do the thing. I was gonna do it. So, um, I started to look for dance classes. I started to learn how to dance. I wanted to learn how to dance. I wanted to honor that dare because I, I don't know why I wanted to honor that dare, but I did. Does that get us started?
[00:21:51] Yeah, that gets it started where you were at, and then you took the dare and what Oh, no, no, no. Because, because it was really hard because I couldn't find people to teach me. Like I couldn't find people who, who, like, it's not like I rolled up and was like, later I was like, I's gonna find a dance class?
[00:22:17] Like I could not find a dance class that, that would, a studio that would take me and teach me. Um, and, and it's, it wasn't till I was out in the bay, uh, and I saw a flyer for, uh, a like, and I'd been to these classes and they were like, you should just like, wave your arms or you can do this, or, and it wasn't until I'd seen a flyer for Access Dance company that, um, that i, I was able to actually get into like, actually do take a class and dance. Um, and yeah. And even then, even then, at that class, um, I completely sucked. I like, I massively sucked. Like I couldn't get my own body, right? And so I am like, I show up and I am on canes and I can barely like, get this together. And, um, I'm like, I left a wheelchair in the car for the first half of the class.
[00:23:16] And like, and then, um, they were like, well, what? And then I don't make it through. And then they're just like, why don't you get your chair outta the car and come back? And so like, I get my chair outta the car and now I'm like, ready. And that's how I got started dancing. But even then, see, like even then, my brain isn't quite ready to accept that, that this is, this is how I can get done.
[00:23:37] This is how I'm gonna do it. So yeah. But that's how I got started. Do you, do you have a moment with either the old story or the new one, or the, the future one, whatever of that you met him exactly when you were supposed to meet him. Do you have any kind of, does it feel like kismet to you as far as the path you emblazoned now?
[00:24:03] You know? Right. So what made me take it seriously? I don't know. Right? Like, I don't, like, I have no really good way to say like, why did I decide to do that? Um, except that my mind had been blown except that I had met someone who's with, who the conversation was just life changing. Um, and there are ways to describe this.
[00:24:27] Like cosme chance, fate. Destiny. Yeah. Or it just could have been like random custard ness. Like I was gonna take that dare. I don't really have good language for that. I don't like, I question. What made me follow through.
[00:24:45] But follow through you did, because I read that two years after that you leave university. Is that, and to become a profess I got tenure. Yeah, I got tenure and I quit.
[00:25:02] Not such a rule follower there. Yeah, no, not such a rule follower there. Um, I think it's kind of sort, it was like I waited to get tenure. Um, but yeah, no, I got tenure. I quit. I felt like I wanted to take this risk. Um, but at that point I was really in it. Like I was really in it. I, you know, the work with access had been extraordinary and I was headed into an atten, an intensive that was a 10 day intensive that Access was running in Seattle and
[00:25:31] I was like, I, I wanted more than anything to join the company. I wanted more than anything to join the company, and I was just gonna like, lay it down. I I was gonna go full out for it and I did. Mm-hmm. I really did. Um, yeah. I was so eager and so ambitious and so ready to live this life. Yeah.
[00:25:55] Do you remember a moment where you talk about, you know, the struggle of this new way of moving and then adding dance to it?
[00:26:03] Do you remember a moment where you went, ah, I got it. Like, uh, like the flutter or the something, do you remember like a specific time and place that it clicked before you move into starting your own company and all of this?
[00:26:20] Uh, no. What I remember is lots of little ones. Right. Lots and lots of little ones like working to gain a skill to be able to do a move.
[00:26:33] I'm like, oh, like four months ago I couldn't do that. Now. Like I have the control of my chair. We have to like wake that like, and, and now I can do this. And like, and then, and then, um, I was really glad to reconnect with performing because performing as a child and as a young adult, um, you know, I, I used to enter these competitions and like win stuff and, and, and I used to play in these massive orchestras and four chamber groups and I breathed that Air of Stageyness and stageyness is, is amazing, like on stage, like it's really true. People, people say it's like the, the way you can be the, the best human you are the best version of yourself. It's really true. Like on stage there's something that. It's like, I don't know, it, it's something in the energy. It's, that's, that's just indescribable.
[00:27:28] And so being able to dance like that, amazing. I, mm. Fantastic. Yeah. I wanna read a quote of yours if I may. Oh. Being on stage is sometimes surreal. For one brief evening, I'm connected to several hundred people at once. We are in a conversation that frequently has no words. I cannot see them, but I can feel them sometimes.
[00:27:53] I know we are breathing together. Right. Made me think of that. When you talked about being on stage, what spoke to me so beautifully about that quote is that, that feeling that you are breathing with the audience, that, that one. It's true, um, when a show is going well, it's not because I am necessarily like hitting all the high points of the moves.
[00:28:21] It's because the audience is there and you know the audiences are there. Like, have you ever, you, you, have you been an audience where like you are so focused in and like you can sort of sense the people around you, but you are so focused like on the stage and what's happening and like you, like you are barely, it's like you, you begin to, your body sinks and you begin to, to like think with the performers and um, your body begins to feel the dance within.
[00:28:55] And even though you're not moving and, and like on the other end, I'm there with you, I can feel you when you're like that. I can feel you and you being there. Like I have the energy to do whatever. Like, but when you're not there, like as an audience member, when you are not there, I can tell that too. And I also know that nothing I can do like, um
[00:29:17] in a good show. I don't necessarily have to try hard, but in a, in a show that's not going well, you can just keep trying and keep trying for the connection and it, sometimes it's just not there. It's just not there when it's mm-hmm. That flow instead of trying to muscle it. Right. Yeah. You said earlier that you do things and kind of go for it.
[00:29:44] You're kind of a leaper, right? So now you've left academia and you are dancing training and then you start Kinetic Light. I'm fast forward, and this is, you know, I'm going down the timeline a bit. You can interrupt or correct me any, we're on a ride together, a little journey together, kinetic light. Um, do you remember.
[00:30:14] Where you were or what you felt when you decided you wanted to start your own company? Yeah. I had been working as a freelance artist for around four years, patching it together as people do, which is really hard as a disabled artist back then. And even now because there aren't that many opportunities.
[00:30:32] Um, you know, I had been working in the UK. I've gone back to work at Mark Brew and anyway, I didn't decide to start a company, right. What I decided was I wanted to work with Michael Mag and, uh, Michael and I started on this thing. I was like, we were in this conversation. I was like, and this and this, and this and this.
[00:30:56] And, um, between August and December, like we hit, I, you know, there, there was a dance, there was a project being formed and I was just like, Michael, this is not just you and me. This is not a solo. We need another dancer. And I'd met Laurel, um, in blogging land way back in 2005. And, and Laurel had also invited me and, uh, introduced me to Douglas Scott from Fall Radius dance.
[00:31:23] And, and they put me to go down to work with the company there. Um, I knew that Laurel would be a person I wanted to work with. Um, and so, yeah. Uh, so we didn't start a company. I started a project. I started a piece, um, and I started the work of art. And the company kind of grew up around the art making, like not, it's not like I decided I needed to start a dance company.
[00:31:49] It's like I wanted to make these work and I wanted to make this and I wanted that. And we had to have a name. So then there was a name, uh, right. Uh, and then, you know, uh, then there was like, there had to be some kind of like declaration so we could get a reply for grants. So, and then all of a sudden now, now there's a company, um.
[00:32:12] So there's that. Uh, but I didn't, I didn't know. I didn't know that that was what was happening. And basically everything that, um, has happened is happening, has come from the desire to make work in a particular way. Um, and to realize that goal first. Yes. And what is that particular way? Um,
[00:32:45] shorthand for us by us.. That's the shorthand for us by us.. The long, uh, so for us by us. Oh, okay. Got it. Um, the long hand is a story of home and of belonging of loneliness. Um.
[00:33:14] And wanting to make work, wanting for my wanting, wanting what I didn't have. So I wanted to make something that I didn't have because I thought other people might want it too. And specifically, a lot of the work I was seeing at the time was either attempting to be nonpolitical in which disability was incidental. It it, you know, it, it was a state of the body or mind of the performer. But it wasn't rooted in disability culture. Like, it was just kind of like, it didn't overall forget the tourette, the, the aesthetic, the organizing principles of the work.
[00:34:11] Um, it was just, you know, I would show up and do a dance or, um, I would show up and watch this theater production in which the actor happened to be disabled. Um, and, um, other work that I was seeing was, um, or reading was really focused on convincing non-disabled audiences of the, or the value of disabled life.
[00:34:40] It, it was about, or the, or or it was about non-disabled understandings of disability. Like the, the, like the the medical experience, the tragedy narrative or the overcoming narrative. Um, and so partly what I wanted to do was like, you know, I, I remember one day leaving a, a, a theater just being like, like everyone was gushing about how wonderful it was when, and like how, how tragic the disabled person died.
[00:35:12] And I'm just kind of like, really, like at what point do we get to live? Like who is making like, and, and like this is feeding your bias and your narratives about disability. It's not feeding my world. It's not, you know, and so I wanted to make work that, that spoke. I wanted work for me, I wanted work that spoke from our culture, that connected with other artists and other culture makers.
[00:35:41] That was intertextual, that was, um, set in a series of legacies and traditions. I wanted work that. That, um, was disabled. Um, and, and part of the problem here is that people understand disability mindly as a medical situation, not as a cultural or an aesthetic situation. Um, and so a medical situation is one thing, but if disability is a false or an aesthetic or an organizing principle, like you've got a very different thing going on.
[00:36:13] Um, and so I wanted work that was about home. You know, that, that, that, yeah, that, well, I had this, I was sitting thinking about some stuff last night and I had this thought that you, what you were teaching me in your latest New York Times article, um, about your show Wired, what I was learning or realizing, it's not about inclusion. Um, it's about, um, it's about enhancement.
[00:36:54] Like when I, if I can learn from another human, their experience on life and I can share mine, then I don't live in my own little reality of my world. Like if, if I can learn from someone the sensuality of the sound of Velcro, then I can understand on a deeper level the human experience and that only enhances my human experience.
[00:37:26] When I read in the piece you wrote for the New York Times so beautifully, this, that, I mean. You don't know what you don't know, and this, and how you describe the moment on stage with the sound of Velcro and it's the release, this releasing and this like intimate Yes. Of moving towards someone, of surrendering this sexual energy towards someone.
[00:37:56] I would never have known that. And now I get to have a richer experience. When I hear the sound of Velcro, i'm, I'm gonna like, say yes, but also more of, but, but also a yes and right. Okay. Yeah. Um, and, and I'm gonna ask you a, a diff, a more difficult question. Uh, so yes, and I believe that that, that that is enhancing of the human spirit and of the human of human connection, and that something like that lasts and it just keeps going.
[00:38:38] But also, I also wanna, like, the, the moment of moving the belt and unstrapping resonates differently within disabled culture for disabled people, right? The, for, for those of us who have unstrapped lovers, or for those of us who, um, unstrap ourselves to be lovers or like, uh, for those of us who have struggled with the idea of wearing a seatbelt for those of us who, do you know what I mean?
[00:39:10] The, the, that is a different story. So those stories are present within it as well. And I like, my, my intent there was to access, what Laurel and I spent a lot of time talking about was really like, what does this belt do within disability culture? We know that the, that, that the non-disabled world is gonna have a whole set of reactions about it.
[00:39:37] But the intent was to, to reach something that would signify, uh, that would resonate within disability culture itself. So there are multiple levels of experience going on. Um, and the one that I wanted to, to, to focus on was really like, what does it, like, I wanted it to be, to resonate in disability culture.
[00:40:01] I know that non-disabled people will have a reaction to it. Um. But the intent was to, to resonate within disability culture. Does that make sense? So here's my question to you. Okay. And this is something that I actually, I ask myself, um, when I enter an encounter, uh, work that is not intended for me, uh, you know, if I go, if I go to, to see an art, uh, exhibition of work that emerge from a culture or subculture that I'm not part of, like, then I have to ask myself like, what are my responsibilities as a viewer of this work?
[00:40:39] What are my responsibilities as an experience of this work? And as an audience member, if for a show, like, what are my responsibilities? And so, I don't know, like, how do you think about your responsibilities as someone who attends art performances or experiences art, someone who makes the art that you're making right now.
[00:41:01] Like, how do you think about those things? My responsibility is kind of very twofold and different, I would say one of my ways, I feel like my responsibility is to get out of the way. Um, because there's so much I wanna learn from others, and I have this image that I am only a pair of eyes. I just, I, I let everything else dissolve so that I can just witness.
[00:41:26] So I think my responsibility is to witness beauty and brilliance and do what I can to bring it out into the world. And, um, and then obviously the ongoing conversation of anything I'm living, living in a way that is authentic and, um, respectful. Right. Taking responsibility, walking the walk. I, I did some stuff in my, I kind of, I did a leaping of my own and kind of blew up some stuff because I knew I couldn't have gotten here if I wasn't being honest, you know?
[00:42:01] So I had to get to where I am, you know, by doing some hard stuff myself. So I tried to keep that in mind. Thank you. It's, it's, it's real, right? Yeah. It's real. Like, um, I, I, I don't think art is like just shoving a sandwich down your throat, you know? Yeah. Um, not great art. Uh, not great art. No. And, and, and, but great art only becomes great because it is, is it meets with an audience member who, who is able to be there. But this is a two way thing. I don't think, I don't know that objectively a great piece of art is, is great until it has an audience. And I know a lot of people say that. Um, so yeah, I think, I think that our responsibilities are to, to do that. And my responsibility and the thing that I am interested in right now is, is creating in this way, um, that speaks to a culture that is sent, that is known to us, that is witnessed, that is held in community.
[00:43:15] Um, to speak from it where I can and to speak in it where I can. Um, and to know, to know where I, where, like where I belong. 'cause I don't belong in all of it and where I don't belong. And to make work that is in those spaces that I can be in. Um, yeah. Yeah. That's my responsibility, I think, and to make the best work I can.
[00:43:43] Yeah. Yeah. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It's a biggie. It is. You've, you've torn off a big piece, but how Rich? Yes. How, I mean what, how amazing, like what is there, um, I know you're just getting off the show Wired, right? That was in August, is that right? Oh, that was August of 2022. Uh, we're getting off. Uh, yeah, we just got the next times, uh, we just, uh, that came down in October. So yeah, I think it was transformative.
[00:44:25] I mean, transformative. Just, um, both in some ways. Wildly externally, beautiful. But also the experience of dancing with, uh, Tati Eva, a new artist to the company, and Kayla Hamilton. New work, new beings, uh, new, uh, ways to understand each other on stage. Um, so really appreciating, um, the, the, the performance, but also, uh, working with new designers, um, and Kate free and Carlos, John making, uh, projections Annie weekend making light Josh Lo making music.
[00:45:07] So just really under like brand new world. Brand new world. Um, yeah, it must be so, um, interesting and such connection. The people that you bring along with you or that you gather along the way as you guys all, as you create these new pieces.
[00:45:29] Yeah, I would say, um, you might see two or three people on stage. Mm-hmm. Um, there were four in the next times, but like over 30 people make the work. Wow. Like from composers to poets to designers to, yeah. Like there's, there's, there's a lot going on that you don't see. Um, and so the, the community and then there's a production team, you know, so the community at the work is much, much larger than the performance.
[00:46:04] Uh, and like, I think, you know, people, it's, it's at, you know, at the moment, at the point of performance, like it's the dancers who, who, you know, are most visible. But the show itself is the work of many, many, many hearts and minds. Yeah. And we could not do it without our administrative team. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, the production team are in the space, the administrative team is often not.
[00:46:28] Mm-hmm. And so it's really, it's, it's, you know, it's wonderful to accept a bouquet at the end, but it's also like we are just the, the, the most visible, the tip of the iceberg for the whole show. And that's an incredible, incredible experience. Yeah, I understand that. Um, yeah. Tell me, what was the story of this project?
[00:46:51] Like, if you were, if I was like, tell me about this performance, where would you, what would you share with me? I would share with the pandemic. Uh, it started to being about survival. Um, when, of course, at a, actually in a point in point in 2021, uh, when survival was really like, like, um, not clear. Um, so I started thinking about, you know, survival.
[00:47:21] Um, you know, journeys to a planet that we didn't know, uh, what, what did it mean? This life and, and, and connection, literally connection. Um, and this work has taken shape in many different ways. Um, but it started with how do we connect with each other in the pandemic? Um, and it went from there to this, this sort of meditation on loss, grief, memory, resilience, the future of the past.
[00:47:59] Um, you know, there's a, uh, arc back into the dance world and in particular looking at like some of the figures of Swan Lake. There's, there's just, um, it's a longer, it's a longer, it's a longer work. Um, but yeah, it's, it's. I'm, I'm still, I'm still processing. I, you know. Yeah. And how amazing that you get a process.
[00:48:28] I mean, dance is just the great expression, um, in my life and, and the stories I've found this great expression of all the things that we get to move through, you know, like, um, the isolation, the fear, the, you know, the dark side just as much as the celebration of life. It's like, ah, to, to work through it with movement.
[00:48:51] I, I find it so exciting. Uh, yeah. One of the things Laura brought to, uh, you know, like one of the many things Laura brought to the next times is also considered consideration of materiality. Like it's one of the most proppy, uh, pieces ever that we've done. Um, and start the work, um, wearing these Mylar, um.
[00:49:15] Mylar creations and we end the work in feathers. And the reason that I say that, um, is because a lot of the considerations of of times actually are when is the body visible? When is the body not visible? And so, um, it becomes more and more stripped down throughout the work. So by the end, we aren't naked.
[00:49:41] Um, but we are the most vulnerable in terms of, um, or exposed and maybe expo exposure doesn't mean vulnerability, but we are the most exposed by the end of the work, um, than we were at the beginning when the body was completely covered. And so this is a process that is actually, um, worked through with the audience about the body.
[00:50:01] Sometimes our bodies are in shadow, you know, and they're huge. Sometimes our bodies are hidden in the Mylar. Other times our bodies are just two humans sitting at the edge of the world in a bed of feathers, you know? Um, and the movement of that is, yeah. Yeah. Um, exposed or vulnerability. When I see people have the courage to bring that to their art, it seems to speak to the audience in such a bigger way.
[00:50:36] Yeah. I think, huh. As a performer, it is easy for me to be like, smashed fashion and huge on stage, like big movement. Um, I really enjoy the moments where it's like, I want the audience to focus on my fingers and, and like the curl of my fingers or the touch. Yeah, a placing, like, I want, I want that. And that is, that is, it's dreamy.
[00:51:14] Dreamy. It seems like that is, um, I see that in a lot of your photographs with Laurel, that it, it does feel very dreamy and very intimate. Um, that kind of connection and vulner allowing the vulnerability. And so now that you are, you know, um, processing and exhaling, what, what now? Processing and exhaling.
[00:51:42] Processing and exhaling, um, there's a lot of work to be done with stuff. You know, a show when a show stops, you know, stuff has to get cared for and maintained and cleaned and dusted and put away, and, um, so there's that. Um, there's gonna be a lot of work in terms of, um, you know, building the resilience and the systems so that we can build the next show.
[00:52:11] Um, we are in the, in the in actually within the next two weeks we'll be announcing, so I can't quite do it yet. Um, but in the next two weeks we'll be announcing, um, uh, some new collaborations and new partnerships, and then literally the process begins again of thinking, thinking, thinking before, um, before like, uh, getting too deep into it of like building the next show.
[00:52:34] Um, but it's already. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. It's already been burst in there. Uh, parts that it have, parts that it have. Um, yeah. Uh, you know, and, and there's something just kind of like, um, I used to say this about my writing. It's like I used to dislike the process of writing because I was like, I've already had the idea, like why do I need to write it?
[00:52:57] Um, uh, and uh, now I'm kind of like at the process of, oh, the ideas are coming and there will be a show. Um, there will be a show. There will be a show. There will be a show. Oh, that's so exciting. There be a show. Oh, that's so exciting. Writing. I wanted to ask you about writing. That was one of my questions.
[00:53:17] Oh, you are a beautiful writer. Um, thank you. Do you feel like a book or a deeper dive into writing is part of the picture for you? I. Funny you should say that. So, um, this year I, I wrote a lot of academic work, uh, academic pieces. Like I wrote a piece, um, with Susan Squire on disability and comics and Parkinson's.
[00:53:45] Um, and, um, I've written, uh, a couple of academic essays. Uh, I wrote a piece of poetry that will be published. I'm like, really? You're publishing my poetry? Hope it's okay. That's fantastic. Um, uh, but yeah, I, I, I don't think I'll write a book. I, you know, I wrote an academic book. I don't think I want that to do that again.
[00:54:08] But, um, I dunno. Maybe the next book we'll have some text. Ooh. Mm-hmm. Oh, I love when words are combined. Oh, that's exciting. Congratulations on the poetry. Did that, oh, thank you. Is writing poetry new or something you've always kept close. Oh, it's really new. Um, yes, so, um, I, we'll see how it goes. Um, but we'll see how it goes.
[00:54:39] But yeah, I think, um, I think one of the ways that, I just finished a huge essay yesterday, um, and, and sent it in, and the, the, the, I feel like the, that it set the foundation for the thinking for like what's next. Um, and I really, yeah, I'm really happy. I learned a lot from that process. Like, oh, right, this is how this works.
[00:55:07] Like, oh yeah, this really, yeah. You know? So yeah. Writing. Mm-hmm. I love that. To describe what I'm seeing right now. I see a person that is bubbling with ideas and moving her body in a way that shows that the process of creating is alive, how we describe ourselves. I have to describe how beautiful you are right now, and it's like physicality of how you're moving, talking about these ideas that are coming or this creation that's at the surface.
[00:55:44] Thank you. So hopefully can I, can I invite you to come and, and I maybe just sit in the corner one day please. I would. I will sit in the corner any day. You would.
[00:55:59] I would love that. I'd be honored. Oh, that'll be fun. That'll be fun. Yes. That'll be fun. Okay. I'm gonna, well, I wanna definitely ask a question I love to end interviews with. Um, oh, so if we basically can just rise above the here and now, you and I, you know, this, uh, keep going higher and higher. The eagle's eye view.
[00:56:27] The eagle's view above everything. What is a universal truth for you?
[00:56:35] Human beings when they aren't, I just, I, I said this the other day, I was just like, oh my God. It's actually true. When, when we aren't completely destroying the planet and each other, human beings are brilliant. You know, like, like, like, like humans. We're brilliant. We're amazing. Oh my gosh. Um, we're amazing.
[00:57:05] Humans are truly incredible. Also really gross, disgusting, horrible things. But when we're not those things, I agree. I know. I'm constantly just like, wow. Humans.
[00:57:25] Yes.
[00:57:29] Oh, so good. I was just, I was just shocked in my tracks. Like we're absolutely incredible. Yeah, I know. I have such a fondness and here we're, and you're an exceptional one. Exceptional one of 'em, I must say. You're an exceptional human. I'm so, I loved, I love talking to you and I'm so glad you made this work for us. Thank you for hanging for me. It took a while. Um, can I ask you, like, if you rose above now, what would your truth be?
[00:58:11] Um, okay. Let me think. My, it changes, but I would say if I rose above all of it to the Eagle's view, um, it would, I would see that we are all connected and remember that I've always known that.
[00:58:39] Mm-hmm. Once I got the hamster wheel out of the way and, you know, the constructs out of the way, just I would, I would remember, uh, this human experience of connection as one. Yeah. Oh, I hope we stay connected. I hope we do too. I would love that. And I'm serious about being in the corner. Please.
[00:59:11] I'll just be there. I would love to see the creating and to see you perform. It would mean a lot. This can happen. Okay. I come to New York all the time. I, I wanna be there more and more, so I'm there. We are there. All right. This seems like this can be done pretty easily, uh, at some point. So let's just say, um, we'll connect it.
[00:59:36] Okay. And our paths will cross. Yes. Yes. I love it. Love it. In the heart of Ketchum, Idaho, discover a place where art, culture, and compassion come together. At Davies Reid, every rug is unique and one of a kind hand woven by Afghan Turman artisans whose skills have been passed down through generations using high mountain hand spun wool and natural dyes.
[01:00:04] Each piece reflects a timeless tradition and is a living work of art. Founded over 40 years ago, Davies Reid evolved into a refugee weaving project and continues to give back through their nonprofit yurts to universities. Parts of each rug cell helps send Turman girls to school, opening doors to education that would otherwise close.
[01:00:26] After the sixth grade in Afghanistan, come explore beauty with a story at Davies Reid in Ketchum. A destination for extraordinary rugs, handcrafted jewelry, furniture, art, and treasures from around the world. Davies Reid where Craftsmanship Meets Soul. Okay. Do you have, are you ready to read this letter? Oh yeah.
[01:00:50] We have business ready. We have the business of the end of the podcast. I love these letters. I, I'm just, I'm in awe of what people share. Mm mm-hmm. So this is a reflection from the the Why I Dance essay, and I've really been thinking about like, why do I dance? Um,
[01:01:17] I was not supposed to be a dancer. I grew up. Playing music, dreaming of working in an orchestra. I pivoted at the last minute, studied languages in university, went to graduate school, became a professor, and never looked back at the arts until I attended a disability studies conference in 2004 and met disabled dancer, Homer Avila.
[01:01:42] I watched him perform. We spoke after the show. He dared me to take a dance class and after a glass of wine, I accepted the dare. At the time, I could not have guessed the effect his words would have on me. His words knighted in me, a curiosity that became a fiery passion for dance. A short time later, Homer died, but I eventually took action on his dare.
[01:02:09] I went to a dance class to honor him. Two years later, I resigned from my job and began to train as a dancer. A decade later, I founded a disability arts company, Kinetic Light. And even now, 20 years after that day, people often ask Why I Dance? I tell them because of the way it feels, because of the pleasure, it's power and freedom.
[01:02:30] I like nothing else. I know I dance because I can. I love that power and freedom like no other expression. It's Did you dance? Do I dance? Yes. Yeah. I grew up dancing. And dance is dance. Dance is my first love. That's how, you know, I've come back full circle from the storytelling filmmaking to come back into, um, dance.
[01:02:58] Because for me. For me it's breath. Oh yeah. This is so cool.